Verbatim:
"As for ten years ago: should have been a real committee with input from kresse and informed decision. Reality: Higdon + UVA man-gasm = Herrion.

Now: Should be a real committee with input from bobby and JK. Reality: Bobby will get his man the job. Love bobby, but man, I don't see a lot of programs being put completely at the mercy of former coaches in regards to succession of leadership."

Summary: ten years ago Kresse should have been given input.
Now, Programs should not be at the mercy of former coaches.
=contradictory


Another summary: Post 1-Cremins (an experienced legend) worked out.
Post 2- Byington (who was Cremins asst. that entire time in post 1) has a "decade worth of a WEAK track record"
= contradictory

You must have some inside info. How is this time a unilateral decision? Spill the beans.

"Sherlock Holmes" comes from pre-conceived notions turning into paranoia. Or you have some inside info. Spill the beans if you do.

regarding the definiton of a strawman argument we all have a live example in your recent posts.

"Come on, this is clearly nepotism/cronyism. It's not what you know, its who you know and what door you can get your foot stuck in. "
""We don't know who we're interested in (wink wink), but we're definitely going to give you highest consideration as a finalist (...i.e. give you the job). Because, well, Bobby told us to (hire you). And then we'll solicit resumes and interview some other guys so it all looks on the up-and-up." "

--Who's posts are you directly replying to? You've got these scenarios worked out in your head...and you are debating them.

Fair enough. assuming you observed Kresse through Byington in the same capacity. Personally, i would have loved to have been locker-room present for a few Kresse games.

I'm not quite as smitten with byington as you are mainly because we don't know who the other candidates are.

I also don't get your earlier comment about Kresse-Byington-Cremins being in the same mold, but dont want to add another post to that absurd thread about Mike Young.

One last post tonight about this hire.
My opinions:

We should have a search and now is the right time.
Byington should be a candidate and naming him as one now is appropriate.
Player transfer rumors should have little to do with coaching interviews / decision making criteria.
Kresse / Cremins (in that order) should have input into the decision. Input does not equal veto authority.
Part of the hiring criteria hopefully includes our expectations-potential-history-etc. (ie try to weed out the 2 yr. jumpers a la Buzz P.)

And a note to my fellow cougar, 08: "Pessimism never won any battle" - Eisenhower.

I am not trying to be mean, but you seriously are not reading my posts. I just explained your "contradictions" in explicit detail. If you won't read the explanation and simply re-hash the same text then....

READ the very last two posts on the prev. page.

Nonetheless, I will try again to clarify your gross misinterpretation, but I suppose again you will fail to read my post:

1. "No program should be at the mercy of a former coach"-- No program should have its future leadership decisions entirely dictated by the last coach (or just the univ. president). No decision should be made in such UNILATERAL fashion. Last coach input + full committee = good. This is not hard to understand sweetp. Again, this statement is non-contradictory. Original post was meant to state singular decision making by those in power without true input from a committee. Bobby's public overly premature endorsement of MB has all but forced this into happening again.

2. Track record-- explained IN DETAIL in my followup post (the one paragraph post on bottom of prior page-- beginning with "cremins was a successful hire........). Go read it. Building/fundraising under Cremins (face of the program) = Good. Game/season results under cremins and byington = Some good, some bad, but overall-- Not nearly as good as they could have been. Good foundation, good position to get there, need better trajectory. If you are happy with where we are and don't wish to see NCAAs, then quit reading and quit trying to overanalyze my post. It is not contradictory to say that I appreciate the cremins years but also point out faults that lie at his and byington's feet.

3. Your example of a strawman was my quoted hyperbole??... lol. Try again. You initially stated 3 "strawmen", all subsequently pointed out to you to be actual statements by actual other posters. The quoted phrase you now point to is a hyperbolic example of what I imagine Joe Hull to be thinking (I guess hyperbole = paranoia now). It ain't gospel, its a joke. And it still ain't a strawman by definition, I'm not painting someone's argument falsely putting words in another debater's mouth in order to easily construct an effective counterargument to the misrepresented and thus false premise (strawman). I'm giving an overly exaggerated and rhetorical example of my line of thinking to illustrate a simple point (hyperbole). Hyperbole, by the way, is not meant to be taken literally... ergo, again, it is not paranoia it is a JOKE.

And no, I have no inside info. Can you take the blinders off for a second? Finalist prior to announcing search or soliciting resumes/no transparency of other candidates/former coach strongly selling his protege (as expected)/more than one person on this thread (prominently 2357) with inside info stating booster opinion. Put it all together. My God man, you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist. It is MB's job to lose. Not sure how you fail to comprehend that and the SEARCH is formality.

Not because I have inside info but more simply: CHRONOLOGICALLY ONE PERSON WAS HEAVILY FAVORED BY THE OUTGOING HEAD COACH AND THIS WEIGHT HAS PREDETERMINED THE "OUTCOME" PRIOR TO ANY SEARCH.

Even more simply:

1) Coach quits and then Person A takes over
2) Coach immediately starts PR campaign for Person A, his protege and legacy
3) Top administrator and former coaching legend JK now endorses Person A because for the legend to publicly disagree with the also popular outgoing coach is a PR and fundraising nightmare
4) Season ends, coach officially quits. Person A immediately named finalist for the vacancy.
5) ONLY NOW is a search announced
6) Except for person A, none of the general public are apprised of the situation in regards to possible other candidates
7) PR campaign supporting person A intensifies. Boosters chime in.
8) Outcome-- This part is speculative on my part, a point to which I have freely admitted: Athletic Director knows his job depends on keeping Boosters and admin legends happy: he knows he has to go with Person A regardless of "search"

How is that illogical??? Its the "occam's razor" (most simple explanation) for the known facts and chronology of events. Its all we have to go on that is currently public knowledge. Yes, motives, etc. cannot be completely known. But the chain of events stated above is correct and lends credence to the likelihood of the outcome I proposed.

4. Again-- read the last post on the previous page. I will quote it for you if you like. It is hard to have any real meaningful debate with you if you refuse to read posts and restate the same text over again.

This post was not meant to "flame you", rather to point out that I have addressed your concerns. I understand that this may have been overlooked and thus don't mind clarifying my position. Does it make sense now?

_________________
Proud to be a Cougar

This is a sensible post.

We are actually saying much of the same thing. What I disagree with is public PR campaign and endorsement of byington and the lack of transparency in regards to other candidates. If you name one finalist, you should name them all. Coaches should get input, but public endorsement before logically examining all choices is obviously wrong and throws a serious wrench into the mix.

That's all I'm saying. Let's not make it more complicated than it has to be.

_________________
Proud to be a Cougar

I add my name to this post in its totality.

I don't believe that naming the interim head coach as a finalist dirties the process. This is based on my experience observing other sports teams and their treatment of interim coaches.

I cannot wait until the actual names come out so that we can actually debate something tangible instead of these nebulous philosophical arguments.

I do feel that Byington did an admirable job in his tenure. Recall folks that before he took over the team had lost three straight and 6 of last 8.

Few if anyone knows what impact Byington's familial connections to movers and shakers at CofC has on the selection process. This is all speculation and the degree which people bang the drum of conspiracy suggests that there is a large contingent that see it as a negative even if that is fair or not.

This is exactly what scares me.......I would rather rely on 10 years of work here at cofc (MB) than a week's worth of interviews etc. to get a feel for a guy. If you beleive that what MB has done here doesn't warrant the job, then that is a vlaid opinion and one I can't change (although i disagree). But if the mantra is the search is so crucial to finding the best candidate etc. , i have to disagree. How would anyone know how a coach will intreact with the fanbase or players for that matter after a interview with Benson and Joe Hull? I know how MB interacts. I'm not jumping on Swamp because I think his opinion is that MB isn't a good enough coach for the job, which he is entitled to think ( he knows plenty about hoops). I personally put a strong amount of value in loyalty, consistency, recruiting and having a coach that understands the cofc fanbase etc. Just my take. The search is on right now, and how transparent is it to the casual fan? Everything thinks that is because MB has already been annointed but I'm not sure about that. There is a lot of sentiment in that direction from a lot of influential folks, but i have'nt seen it announced, have you? My honest opinionis this is starting to drag on a little too long. Final four weekeknd is when all of the coaches meet and assistants are getting their jobs lined up etc. so it's time to pull the trigger already.

+1
All of the posts that say BC is "getting" him the job etc. take away from the body of work Mark has. He was ACC asst., and has spent the last 10 years here, working and recruiting. BC isn't trying to give a gift of "charity", he beleives mark has earned this opportunity. Anyone can agree or disagree with whether he has earned it or not but all of the family conspiracy crap, etc. is just not accurate. Also, to those who say we didn't give JK the opportunity to be involved etc., i would say don't make the same mistake twice. Let BC be involved, let him get us UNC at home, let him get us invited to ESPN tournaamnets in Puerto Rico, Hawaii, St Thomas, Bahamas, Let him open doors for kids professionally, let him fundraise, etc, etc, etc.

Funny.
When you say "let's not make this more complicated...." Are you part of Us? Have you bothered to consider your own capricious ramblings of speculative scenarios; made up conspiracies?

I stick by what I posted Sunday morning-

"A lot will be known after BC, JK & JH return from New Orleans. Known by them; not necessarily by us right away. I think they'll be looking and talking and listening to find out one thing- is there someone compelling (in our price range) other than Byington?"

Feel free to show me where that's not our current situation.

Even in agreement I've struck a nerve... you're hopeless.

Regardless, you missed your target again. Determined to start something I guess, but maybe its not your fault:

#pathologic

_________________
Proud to be a Cougar

Color me crazy but I swear I saw Bruce Webber, former Illinois coach on campus today. I did a double take and told myself, nahhhhhh. But then I got thinking, a man that looks like Bruce Webber in a suit.....hmmmmmmmmm

Saw this on @highmajorscoop's Twitter. From last night. Take this for what its worth.

Names for College of Charleston: Al Skinner, Brett Reed (Lehigh coach), Fran Fraschilla, Byington, and Mike Rhoades (VCU assistant).

Nice find Charleston.
Brett Reed would be a huge name. Huge.
2 NCAA's in the last three years.
Knocked Duke Out.
Has experience in NC as an assistant in Greensboro and High Point.

My one knock on him would be if he can recruit to the level of that CofC demands and will he vault if he is immediately successful.

The other names on the list are not an upgrade for Byington.

The other names on the list are not an upgrade for Byington.
end quote

Perhaps you are blinded with the love affair for Byington. No I would not want Skinner but to say Fraschilla would not be an upgrade is absurd. Even Rhoades has at least been an assistent at a school that has made the Big Dance. More than Byington can say

_________________
You are who you are because you are who you want to be

Why don't you ask the opposite question to yourself?
Are so blinded to dislike towards Mark that you will never accept him?

Lets look at Fraschilla for a second.
Great coach at Manhattan for 4 years parlayed that to a two year stint at St. Johns then three years at New Mexico where he was generally mediocre.
Out of coaching for 10 years. Red Flag
Never stayed in one spot for more than a few years. Red Flag
No ties to our region. Not a red flag but a negative.
Has been named to many coaching searches but never hired. Red Flag.

Rhoades was never a D1 coach. Impossible to say if he is an upgrade.

I think Mark's long standing ties to the community are a plus?
I think Mark being the lead assistant to Cremins is a plus?
I thought the team improved under Mark's watch during his stint.
I want the guy who takes over to be an upgrade.
Many would add their names to that.

Why don't you ask the opposite question to yourself?
Are so blinded to dislike towards Mark that you will never accept him?

Lets look at Fraschilla for a second.
Great coach at Manhattan for 4 years parlayed that to a two year stint at St. Johns then three years at New Mexico where he was generally mediocre.
Out of coaching for 10 years. Red Flag
Never stayed in one spot for more than a few years. Red Flag
No ties to our region. Not a red flag but a negative.
Has been named to many coaching searches but never hired. Red Flag.

Rhoades was never a D1 coach. Impossible to say if he is an upgrade.

I think Mark's long standing ties to the community are a plus?
I think Mark being the lead assistant to Cremins is a plus?
I thought the team improved under Mark's watch during his stint.
I want the guy who takes over to be an upgrade.
Many would add their names to that.

Another name I thought of but doubt we could afford..........Dino Gaudio of Wake Forest.

Don't know much about him but he seemed to do OK at Wake. I think he had Wake ranked #1 in the nation on one time. Wake always fell flat come ACC tourney time.

Looking at the names above I was impressed with what I saw with Mike Rhoades.

Had a great run as head coach at a DIII in Virginia, is currently the associate head coach at VCU, and seems like a good personality.

Brett Reed looks good as well coming off the win against Duke, Lehigh's team was very similar to our roster, so he'd fit right in. Without the Duke win though I don't know that his record at Lehigh knocks you off your feet. Also thought he was an interesting guy in his very straightforward, thoughtful and analytical answers to questions thrown at him during and after the Duke win. He is a straight arrow and has great leadership qualities but would seem to be almost stoic to a fault. He's the type of guy you want in charge if you were under nuclear attack.

As for retreads, personally they'd have to blow me away with a renewed dedication to the game and a real plan for Cougar basketball. Maybe a Skinner or Franchella do this. Someone above mentioned Bruce Webber, who had some great years at Illinois and who has not been away from the game.

Rhoades and Reed look like top notch choices for the College of Charleston.

He served as head men's basketball coach at Manhattan College, St. John's University and University of New Mexico, before joining ESPN as broadcast analyst. He currently serves as a game analyst, mostly on Big 12 action, and as a studio analyst for ESPN college basketball programming. He also covers the NBA Draft, focusing mostly on foreign players. He was an assistant coach at Providence with University of Texas-Austin coach Rick Barnes. His co-broadcaster on many Big 12 games is Ron Franklin, also an Austin resident. He also serves as ESPN's analyst for its broadcasts of FIBA tournaments. His son, James Fraschilla, is currently a freshman guard for the University of Oklahoma men's basketball team.

[edit] Head coaching record



Season

Team

Overall

Conference

Standing

Postseason



Manhattan (Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference) (1992–1996)



1992–1993

Manhattan

23–7

12–2

1st

NCAA First Round



1993–1994

Manhattan

20–10

10–4

T-2nd

NIT First Round



1994–1995

Manhattan

26–5

12–2

1st

NCAA Second Round



1995–1996

Manhattan

17–12

9–5

3rd

NIT First Round



Manhattan:

86–34

43–13




St. John's (Big East Conference) (1996–1998)



1996–1997

St. John's

13–14

8–10

5th (BE6)




1997–1998

St. John's

22–10

13–5

2nd (BE6)

NCAA First Round



St. John's:

35–24

21–15




New Mexico (Mountain West Conference) (1999–2002)



1999–2000

New Mexico

18–14

9–5

3rd

NIT Second Round



2000–2001

New Mexico

21–13

6–8

T-5th

NIT Quarterfinal



2001–2002

New Mexico

16–14

6–8

6th

NIT First Round



New Mexico:

55–41

21–21




Total:

176–99

To say what he did at New Mexico was mediocre is absurd. He took a nothing team in a much tougher conference than the SoCon to the Nit 3 years in a row. If that was mediocre than the accomplishments of the Cougars while Byington has been here is pis s poor. Apparently you can not read plain English either. I have said on numerous posts I will support Byington if he is selected. How does that relate to I hate him. Excuse me but I have been posting some of the obvious which some of you just simply want to ignore. Saying I believe any of those candidates( Other than Skinner) would be better than Byington at this point has nothing to do with hate. For all I know Byington may learn how to be an outstanding head coach and if selected I would give him the credit he deserves when he proves it on the court with his teams. He has proven nothing to me yet except that under Cremins name he was instrumental in bringing in some decent recruits but iunder Herrions name he was instrumanteal in bring in some thugs

_________________
You are who you are because you are who you want to be

"Even in agreement I've struck a nerve... you're hopeless. "--08.

Added for clarity...not infatuation



08,
You don't even agree with yourself.

WE don't agree. your rambling post of the made up scenario of how the coaching retirement thru search is not agreeable. Nor is your hyperbole.
You are stating that Joe Hull has already made up his mind / will hire Byington / and this search is a charade. Either you have some inside knowledge or you are just making that up in your head for unknown reasons. Assuming you don't have insider knowledge...your post is not agreeable.
To make it even more disagreeable you pass this speculative fantasy scenario off as the "most simple explanation". That is beyond disagreeable,,, It provides you with a fanatasy scenario with which to debate...ie a strawman.

Lol wut?

Your infatuation with me is starting to get a little creepy.

_________________
Proud to be a Cougar

Don't respond 08. That is the same reason Backscreen doesn't post anymore.

I am sorry swamp but your facts about Fraschilla's tenure at New Mexico are wrong. I think you are mixing him up with Dave Bliss, his predecessor.



When Fran Fraschilla took over New Mexico they had just rattled off 4 straight tournament appearances and 6 straigt tournaments in the last seven. They were a big time team. Their home court "the pit" is one of the toughest places to play CBB.

So Fraschilla finished off with two straight losing seasons in conference and didn't make a tournament. They probably only got invited to the NIT because of Rep. Sorry but that is mediocre if you ask me. If you couple that with the decade hiatus from College Basketball thanks but no thanks I would prefer Skinner.

In regards to Dino Gaudio.
I would probably want to steer clear of him.
He lost games in droves at army and Loyola MD.
7 total seasons not one with more wins than losses. That is simply terrible.

He did a little better at Wake but I think he is universally reviled there. Someone with more knowledge of their program could probably elaborate.